Frauen im Discgolf – Ein Kommentar

Ein Freund aus meiner Discgolf-Bezugsgruppe stieß mich auf einen Beitrag von dr.delay („Die ideale Disc-Golferin“), in dem der Autor sich für mehr Frauen im Discgolf ausspricht. Seine Intention ist gut, dennoch spiegelt der Artikel einige Aspekte wider, die meiner Meinung nach in direktem Zusammenhang mit der geringen Frauenbeteiligung im Discgolf stehen.

1.) Der Artikel spricht ausdrücklich nur Männer an. Es wird gar nicht erwartet, dass auch Frauen ihn lesen könnten. Soziologisch gesehen haben wir hier eine In-Group-/Out-Group-Aufteilung, also eine soziale Abgrenzung, die Inklusion eher erschwert. Welche Frau würde da nach dem Lesen sagen, hey klingt gut, ich fühl mich angesprochen, das probier ich mal aus. Ich wahrscheinlich eher nicht.

2.) Außerdem ist auch das Framing hervorzuheben. Es geht im Artikel um Frauen – welche Themen müssen also genannt werden? Gutes Aussehen und Romantik/Erotik. Stellt euch mal kurz vor, ihr wärt eine lesbische Frau und/oder euer Aussehen wäre für euch ein völlig irrelevantes Thema oder eine Frau, die sich trotz Aufwachsens in einer Welt, in der sie ständig danach beurteilt wird, einen Pups um ihr Aussehen schert. Habt ihr? Gut. Und dann den Artikel nochmal lesen. Was stellt ihr fest?

Nichts für ungut dr.delay, deine Intention ist wie gesagt hervorzuheben. Als Ergänzung aber jetzt auch nochmal eine persönliche Stellungnahme zur Thematik aus der Perspektive einer Frau.

Zunächst habe ich selbst das große Vergnügen, dass die Geschlechterzugehörigkeit in meiner kleinen Peer Group quasi keine Rolle spielt, obwohl diese hauptsächlich aus Männern besteht. Wir sind ganz einfach alle Menschen, die gemeinsam den schönsten Sport der Welt betreiben. So ist das. Warum auch nicht.

Trotz solch idealer Bedingungen habe ich lange gebraucht, um mich für die Sportart zu begeistern und ihr einen Großteil meiner Freizeit widmen zu wollen. Der erste Kontakt zu Discgolf in meinem Freundeskreis wurde durch eine Freundin vermittelt, die uns auf eine Runde mitnahm. Allen gefiels, aber irgendwie wars das für uns dann erstmal gewesen. Ein paar Jahre später war ich für ein paar Monate im Ausland und als ich zurückkam, spielten plötzlich alle regelmäßig Discgolf und hatten sich bereits fundierte Fähigkeiten angeeignet. Richtig gut, dachte ich, und ging mit.

Nun war ich die Einsteigerin zwischen all den Könnern (nicht sicher, ob auch Könnerinnen dabei waren). Klar klappts beim ersten Versuch nicht besonders gut und ich kam mir blöd vor und blieb daraufhin daheim. Wieder ein paar Jahre später wollte ich es aber doch nochmal probieren, mit Ambitionen auf Verbesserung. Das Ich-seh-so-blöd-aus-und-kann-das-eh-nicht-Gefühl war zwar wieder da, aber da war auch die entspannte Bezugsgruppe, die sich unermüdlich im geduldigen Zureden und im Loben für gute Würfe übte, bis sich die Begeisterung verselbstständigte.

Das ist meine persönliche Geschichte. Aber ich denke, es ist auch die persönliche Geschichte vieler anderer Frauen, die noch nicht die Überwindung gefunden haben. Und Überwindung kostet es. Zum Beispiel, weil es ein körperbetonter Sport ist und man immer den Blicken der Anderen (meistens halt eben Männer) ausgesetzt ist. Zum Beispiel, weil man sich ab und zu anhören muss, dass der Schrott-Wurf halt typisch Frau ist, denn die können das ja nicht so gut. Zum Beispiel, weil man auf einem Turnier von einem Mitspieler gesagt bekommt, dass man doch eine ganz gute Figur habe und lieber nicht so weite Klamotten anziehen solle. Zum Beispiel.

Die meisten Frauen, die ich bisher gefragt habe, warum sie nicht mitkommen, nennen das bereits erwähnte Ich-seh-so-blöd-aus-und-kann-das-eh-nicht-Gefühl als Grund. Ja, Discgolf ist ein männerdominierter Sport. Ja, manchmal hat man kack Erlebnisse. Aber meiner Meinung nach sind die meisten Discgolfer dennoch Schätze ihrer Spezies, was den Einstieg sicherlich einfacher macht als den Einstieg in andere „Männersportarten“.

Da ist aber noch was. Wenn man sich für ein Turnier der German Tour anmelden will, gibt es verschiedene Kategorien. Open, Master, Grandmaster, und so weiter. Also nach dem Kriterium des Alters kategorisiert. Ach so, und dann gibt es noch die Kategorie „Damen“. Hä, was? Warum wird hier denn nicht nach Alter, sondern plötzlich nach Geschlecht kategorisiert? Warum wird für diese „Damen“ im Normalfall nur ein Bruchteil der Startplätze reserviert? Überhaupt, müssen wir uns dann beim Spielen auch wie Damen verhalten oder dürfen wir Frauen bleiben? Natürlich ist es Quatsch, Frauen die Hälfte der Startplätze zu reservieren, denn es spielen ja eh nur so wenige, die Plätze würden also alle frei bleiben. Bestes Beispiel ist das Women’s Global Event letztes Jahr in Schöningen, bei dem von 52 Startplätzen nur 34 von Frauen belegt waren. Ihr seht, es gibt einfach keine Frauen, die sich bei etwas Ermutigung trauen würden. Sarkasmus Ende.

Das geringere Interesse von Frauen an Discgolf ist also vielleicht nicht nur ein emotionales, sondern auch ein strukturelles Problem. Wenn es gewollt ist, dass der Anteil erhöht wird, dann müssen dafür bessere Voraussetzungen geschaffen werden, sonst ändert sich nix. Siehe Frauen in Führungspositionen.

Trotzdem: Der Einstieg lohnt sich, ihr Frauen da draußen. Und dazu braucht ihr keinen discgolfenden Freund und auch keine engen Klamotten, sondern lediglich Bock und vielleicht ein kleines bisschen Überwindung.

Von daher: Einfach machen, Schwestern! Einfach lassen, Brüder! Einfach gemeinsam Freude haben, Menschen!

Edit: Hier ein lesenswerter Beitrag zu dem Thema aus internationaler Perspektive. Danke an K. für den Hinweis!

Edit-02: Here is an English version of the original contribution by dr.delay and of the comment above.

21 thoughts on “Frauen im Discgolf – Ein Kommentar

  1. Danke, Anna, für diesen Text!

    Ich würde in der Kritik an dem Beitrag von dr. delay noch weiter gehen. Der Macker-Tonfall, in dem der Beitrag geschrieben ist, straft die „gute Intention“ Lügen. Schon alleine, dass er gleich den ersten Satz seinem eigenen Ego widmet, indem er nicht nur in kompletter Themaverfehlung erstmal mit seinem Rating prahlt, sondern obendrauf noch mit seinem chauvinistischen Spitznamen, lässt mich an seinen „guten Intentionen“ zweifeln. Von Männern, die sich für Feministen halten, weil sie ja angeblich „Frauen lieben“ und damit nur Frauen als Sexobjekte meinen, habe ich die Nase voll. Ebenso von Männern, die selbstgefällige Kommentare abgeben, ohne anscheinend auch nur ein bisschen recherchiert oder nachgedacht zu haben.

    Bereits durch den Titel (und dann auch im Text) stellt er implizit hauptsächlich die Frage, welche Voraussetzungen eine Frau erfüllen muss, um Discgolf zu spielen. So als müssten wir es uns irgendwie „verdienen“, in den Boys‘ Club aufgenommen zu werden. Wenn wir es nicht schaffen, sind wir wahrscheinlich selbst schuld. Der Titel heißt „Die ideale Discgolferin“, nicht „Plädoyer für eine inklusive Discgolf-Community“ oder sowas.

    Das Framing, das du erwähnst, macht den Text nicht nur irrelevant für lesbische Frauen oder solche, denen ihr Aussehen nicht so wichtig ist. Dieses Framing reproduziert schädliche Stereotype – nur dadurch, dass er sie aufzählt. Dass er sie am Ende kritisiert, hilft nichts. Da ist der Schaden schon angerichtet. Wenn wir von Frauen in so einem sexualisierten Kontext lesen, bekräftigt das die sexistische Sichtweise von Frauen, die wir alle bis zu einem gewissen Grad verinnerlicht haben. Wie es am Ende bewertet wird – ob es kritisiert wird oder sich als Witz herausstellt o.ä. – spielt in der Wirkung fast keine Rolle. Dass die Nennung bereits ausreicht, um solche Denkmuster zu verstärken, wurde psychologisch zu Genüge erforscht.

    Ich bin sicher, dass er selbst denkt, es sei gut gemeint. Seine innere/unbewusste Motivation scheint mir jedoch seine eigene gönnerische Selbstdarstellung zu sein. Wenn ihm die Sache wirklich am Herzen läge, hätte er mehr getan als seine eigene unreflektierte „gut gemeinte“ Grütze hinauszuposaunen, sich zurückzulehnen und auf seine Medaille zu warten oder auf willige „Ladies“, die ihn „loven“ wollen. Er hätte sich mit diskriminierenden Strukturen auseinandergesetzt, hätte chauvinistisches Verhalten angeprangert, hätte Kampagnen zur Frauenförderung gefordert oder mehr Turniere, die sich an Frauen richten. Er hätte zumindest vor dem Schreiben mit ein paar Discgolferinnen gesprochen oder seinen Text einer Frau zum Drüberlesen vorgelegt.

    Ist er so beschränkt, dass ihm nichts anderes einfällt, als die naheliegendsten Klischees aufzuzählen und diese dann „heldenhaft“ zu verneinen? Oder hat er sich einfach keine Mühe gegeben, einen wirklich wertvollen Artikel zu schreiben?

    Die traurige Wahrheit, die in seinem Text nicht auftaucht, ist, dass es starke frauenfeindliche Einstellungen in der Discgolf-Welt gibt. Einflussreiche Männer in der Szene, die nicht nur keinen Grund sehen, Frauen zu fördern (weil Frauen eh viel zu schlecht seien und das Prestige des Sports beschädigen), sondern die aktiv Leute anfeinden, die sich für mehr Gleichberechtigung im Discgolf einsetzen. Warum spielen in den meisten Turnierfinalen die fünf bestplatzierten Spieler anstatt die Sieger*innen der Divisionen? Es gibt aus der Vergangenheit genug Beispiele von Turnierdirektor*innen, die das letztere Format gewählt haben (wodurch immer eine Frau im Finale spielt) und denen mit Spott oder gar Verachtung begegnet wurde. Es gibt Männer im Discgolf, die denken, Frauen ziehen durch ihr „Schlechter Sein“ die Qualität des Sports nach unten. Es sei eine Zumutung für die Top-Spieler, im Finale „den Frauen beim Scheibensuchen helfen zu müssen“. Die sind heiß auf Prestige und nur auf ihr Ego fixiert und Nachwuchsförderung oder Inklusion ist ihnen scheißegal.

    Dafür gibt es auch Momente der Solidarität und diese gilt es zu stärken. Ich selbst habe mal bei einem Turnier einen Regelverstoß älterer Discgolfspieler im uns folgenden Flight angeprangert, die uns immer wieder in die Bahn reinspielten, bevor wir fertig waren. Besonders einer wollte davon nichts hören und hat mich als hysterisch abgestempelt. Die anderen Frauen in meinem Flight, obwohl sie sich unter uns während der Runde ebenfalls über die Störung aufregten, haben das Maul nicht aufgemacht, als es nach der Runde darauf ankam. Die jungen männlichen TDs haben mich aber ernst genommen. Sie haben bei der Preisverleihung eine Ansage zu dem Thema gemacht und danach nochmal das persönliche Gespräch mit mir gesucht.

    Diese Solidarität – davon braucht es mehr, sowohl von Männern als auch Frauen (Frauen sind nicht automatisch Feministinnen!). Männer im Discgolf, die es wirklich gut meinen, müssen proaktiv zur Öffnung des Sports beitragen, indem sie entsprechende Turnierformate wählen bzw. fordern, und diskriminierendem Verhalten entschlossen entgegentreten. Das tut dr. delay hier leider nicht.

  2. Liebe Sara,

    ich kenne Dich nicht, aber Du hingegen scheinst dr.delay bestens zu kennen und über ihn urteilen zu können, dabei scheinst Du einfach nur seine Ironie nicht wahrnehmen zu wollen.

    Ich bediene gelegentlich eine Disc Golf (!) orientierte Kolumne und bin dabei weder frauenfeindlich (Macker-Tonfall … Du hast gewisslich noch NIE vorher etewas von mir gelesen) noch männerfreundlich. Aber erstaunlich, was man alles in einen so kurzen Beitrag (Dein Kommentar ist drei Mal so lang) hineininterpretieren kann.
    Eine frauenfeindliche Einstellung in derDisc Golf Welt konnte ich bisher keinswegs feststellen, ebenso wenig bin ich ein Ladies Lover (muss man das ernsthaft erklären?).

    Ich pflege übrigens mit bald allen deutschen Spitzen Disc Golferinnen Bekanntschaften/Freundschaften. Du auch?

    John aka dd

  3. „Eine frauenfeindliche Einstellung in derDisc Golf Welt konnte ich bisher keinswegs feststellen“…schreibt der Mann. Großartig…..

  4. Erstmal vielen Dank für den wichtigen Kommentar Anna und die weiterführenden Worte von Sara.

    Und nun zu Dir, Dr. Delay, alter Spaßvogel. Wenn Du dich im Privaten gerne mit dem Titel „Ladies Love“ schmückst ist und das lustig findest, ist das deine Sache, auch wenn das nicht so mein Ding ist. Sobald Du das auf einem öffentlichen Blog tust (jaja, ich weiß, ist ja alles ironisch gemeint…), reproduzierst du damit stereotypische Geschlechterbilder, ob du willst oder nicht. Und deine beißreflexartige, relativierende Antwort, die wiederum auch typisch männlich-patriarchale Kommunikation enthält (sinnbildlich: „Fräulein, du verstehst mich einfach nicht bzw. willst mich ja nicht verstehen), ist absolut entlarvend. Dazu muss man dich auch nicht persönlich kennen, um das zu checken. Hätte ich nach deinem Artikel und Kommentar jetzt eh nicht so Bock drauf…

    1. Philipp,

      die Verwendung von Stereotypen ist ein Stilmittel, um zu übertreiben. Und Übertreibung wird häufig verwendet, um etwas zu verdeutlichen Hat in Deinem Fall leider nicht funktioniert.

      Du willst mich nicht persönlich kennenlernen, weil Du meinst, mich schon zu kennen. Ernsthaft? Das nennt man Arroganz.

      Du darfst meinen Blog gerne doof finden, aber Deine abwertende Beurteilung über mich als Person (interessanter Weise setzte Du die Blog-Kunst-Figur dr.delay mit dem Autor gleich) ist dummerhaft und anmaßend.

      Spiel einfach weiter Ultimate. Du möchtest mich nicht kennenlernen und im Disc Golf können wir auf spaßbefreite Besserwisser, entschuldige: sachliche Kritiker wie Dich gerne verzichten.

  5. Lieber John,

    nein, ich kenne dich nicht. Muss ich auch nicht, um deinen Beitrag zu kommentieren. Dein Blog ist öffentlich und daher zugänglich für eine ganze Menge Menschen, die dich nicht kennen. Daher muss der Beitrag für sich stehen können, ohne Vertrauensvorschuss.

    Dass du deinen eigenen Tonfall nicht als problematisch wahrnimmst und auch keine Frauenfeindlichkeit in der Discgolfwelt siehst, spricht für sich. Ebenso das Hinzuziehen des altbekannten „Some of my friends are black/homosexual/women/…“-Arguments.

    Ich nehme deine Ironie durchaus wahr. Wie ich aber bereits schrieb, kann sich davon niemand was kaufen. Die Stereotype, die du so unbeschwert reproduzierst, richten jeden Tag überall auf der Welt Schaden an. Du kannst dir diese Ironie leisten. Für Frauen sind Diskriminierung, Belästigung und Gewalt bitterer Ernst.

    Ja, es ist in der Tat spannend, was man an einem Text wie deinem alles analysieren kann. Der Seitenhieb auf die Länge meiner Ausführungen ist ebenfalls spannend. Es scheint unangenehm oder anstrengend für dich zu sein, dich mit meiner Perspektive zu beschäftigen. Vielleicht solltest du meine Reaktion erstmal ernst nehmen und als Denkanstoß, bevor du reflexartig in die Defensive gehst.

    Liebe Grüße,
    Sara

    1. Die Länge Deiner Stellungnahme ist anstrengend, weil selbige ehrlich gesagt ein wenig langweilig ist, und trotzdem möchte MANN ja nicht schon wieder frauen-/spielerinnen- und vor allen Dingen nicht lesbenfrendlich ´rüberkommen.
      Aber immerhin bleibst Du sachlich – anders als andere (hier).
      Im Übrigen fühle ich mich geehrt, dass ein popeliger Blog-Eintag für so viel Unruhe unter den UltimaterInnen sorgt und manch gar, nicht einmal mehr unter der Kunst-Figur dr.delay und dem Autor unterscheiden wollen.
      Übrigens habe ich lange, lange vor Dir Ultimate gespielt, sogar mit Frauen zusammen in einem Team … damals ging das noch.
      Gruß zurück

  6. The article compares lesbian women with women that are not interested in their looks. It portrays women as dogs that need to be praised for good behaviour (good girl, that was such a fine throw!). You girls make women to individuals with no self-confidence at all that need help of men to master their life and to follow their dreams.

    Your comments contain so much negative feminismus that I am ashamed and concerned about the negative impacts of the stereotypes YOU spread. Yes, I think there is a better way to work against the lack of women in disc golf than to verbally attack someone who did not want to do any harm, and I don’t see any approach of you to change things. Instead, you use a guy to work off your feelings, making him a subject of a hunt instead of talking to him.

    Disc golf in Germany has a lot to do with tournaments and I know that you know because this is what you are also talking about. You complain and demand more tournament spots for women. I have seen you girls twice in my whole disc golf career. Taking part at tournaments means spots next year. Yes, we have to deserve our spots, as the other divisions also do.

    I would like to know who has made this voluntary approach of this single guy to a task which must satisfy YOUR demands and YOUR expectations? Who are you to judge? We should take him to jail for not addressing his article to women. Him and all the other guys that maybe do mistakes while trying to do good, instead of the guys that do nothing at all. I am really curious about the articles of all the men that are commenting dr delays article, attacking him in public.

    I appreciate dr delays article and I am also very thankful that he made fpo coverage and commentary at the German championships in 2018. Thank you, dr delay!

  7. Many thanks to everyone for the comments! Since apparently non-German speakers are following the discussion I suggest to stick to English (if possible) in order to facilitate the communication.

    My article was not aimed at bashing anyone, but was written as a reply to dr.delay’s column – a column which is publicly available and should therefore allow for a response. Thanks, John, for entering into the exchange. (I would have commented directly under your article, but there was no option to comment so I used this platform.)

    Taking the column as a starting point, the actual question posed above is what might women inhibit from playing disc golf. I am not referring to the top female disc golfers that John mentions, but to the women who have never played before or who have tried it and still don’t love disc golf as much as others do (which is a pity, I’m sure many will agree).

    I’m more than happy for anyone who has never faced sexism in disc golf and I still think that our community is quite open-minded compared to other sports. At the same time I’ve given examples of where I myself encountered sexism and I argue that such cases, in combination with an overwhelming male playership, is a potential reason for the low female participation. At least the latter is what I’ve heard as answers from women when asking why they don’t start playing or continue to play.

    Responding to Cara (thanks for agreeing to continue the discussion here, this allows me to participate):
    The article does not compare lesbian women to women who are not interested in their looks. These two types of women are independent examples of readership that dr.delay’s column does not address. Certainly the most obvious examples that were evoked.

    I have also not conceptualised women as dogs. I wrote about female people who arguably face more difficulties during their first disc golf moments than male people. And that encouragement and praise by skilled players of any gender is helpful. (I intentionally used the gender-unspecific “peer group” which, as was mentioned, does not exclusively consist of men, although it obviously represents the general gender ratio).

    My own approach to changing things is opening the discussion on the reasons of female underrepresentation and suggesting to create an inclusive environment for women. And a female perspective as a response to a male perspective is supportive to an inclusive environment. I wouldn’t call this a hunt, but a valid means to open up the discourse. Talking about women makes no sense when women are excluded – as was the case in dr.delay’s article. Yes, providing tournament coverage is also a good approach to changing things (this was never questioned).

    I consider it necessary to react to one more point. There are always reasons why someone is not able to play as many tournaments as they may personally want: financial, personal, organisational reasons. You are right, women need to participate in tournaments in order to become visible, even considering the proportionally small amount of spots reserved for them. I alone can’t fill all these spots and that’s why we have to raise female participation in disc golf.

    I’d be excited to hear everyone’s ideas on how to achieve that.

  8. I showed both articles to my sister and her wife. They were shocked. You cannot say those phrases in one sentence. My sister and her wife are homosexual women, and they immediately thought that dr delays article is funny and a way to reach other men. What do you thought would happen, what is your stereotype thinking? That every lesbian woman is getting on the „bad guys“ train immediately, or running around in sacks without taking care of their appearance and no humour?

    Your article Anna is not a harmless „exchange“ and you know that. Look at all the mean comments your article caused, by men and women. As your friend Sara says, things stick in peoples mind once they are spoken out and the damage is done, no matter if you afterwards relativize your own words. If dr delay is causing no good with his article alone by using certain sentenses in an ironic way, for everyone clear to understand how it was meant, why do you believe that your own words do better? You cannot choose what you like better. This is not a game, or a case study, or a doctoral thesis ton sociology. You can cause bad things by writing articles someone else takes immediately as a hanger to publicly chase a guy.

    I only see a group of angry people trying to mob a guy, and it scares me how easy people jump on the train. Your friend Sara is not doing you good with her comments, but I am sure you are perfectly aware of that fact.

    You started a hobby you immediately liked, but you thwarted yourself FOR YEARS because you felt stupid while doing it? And the first and only thing that comes to your mind is to take that guys article and himself to the pranger when searching for the reasons? I really can see your good intention, Anna, but your article also reflects some aspects that, in my opinion, are directly even more related to the low female participation in disc golf and sports in general itself than any stereotype article of a guy who wanted to help can ever be. You are right, it’s totally irrelevant which gender the members of your „peer group“ belong to, as long as you need others to even get enough self-confidence to stick to a simple hobby you might have a bigger problem than dr delays article.

    Well, you can stop wondering about why so few women are interested in the sport if that is also their scheme of thinking. It has to do with character what itself and has to do with education and the way one grows up. And THIS is exactly where we should start working. In family work and school education. In strenghten girls in the opinion that they should not take care about what others think about them, that they can achieve whatever they want to and that they are free to choose for themselves those things they want to achieve in their lifes. Talking about steoreotypes is not helping anybody. As Germans say and to quote Sara „I can’t buy me anything“ by talking about it and trying to force other people with aggression to change their behaviour.

    Sara, we should not strengthen other women to get mad on men that show bad behaviour (and I am definitely only talking about this kind of situation, not about the topic in general) and unintentiously giving those men more and more power over ourselves, because each time we get angry because of others we spend too much attention on those negative things and loose happiness in our own lifes. Standing for your rights does not mean running around insulting people, or searching for faults you can tear apart come hell or high water. It often means to choose to be free. We should rather strengthen young women to have enough confidence to don’t give a damn on such behaviour. To mental toughness.

    Don’t you know that you can’t change other people? But you can always change yourself: you decide what to let into your life, and the way you are looking at things. That definitely does not give anybody a free ticket for sexist behavior or mean that women have to change and men are allowed to stay as they are. But it’s better than to run against walls and scream and yelp and end up bitter because no one is taking you serious and you still wasn’t able not change anything but had a bad life. Yes, no boy or man has the right to treat a girl or woman bad – but nobody will change just because we try to force them to. We should work instead on the things we can change. The rest will hopefully follow.

    I have been working on myself for years, to let go the things that I have internalized since childhood and to build a strong mentality. My life is so much easier since then. I personally don’t give a damn on what other people think about my short skirts on the course, my pink discs, my game or what they talk about me. And I also do include women and men hereto, because it’s not a men’s thing talking bad about other people (men and women!) and discriminating them for what they are or what they are not. I am facing this EVEN if or BECAUSE I show up a way some people would say is „feminine“. No matter what you do, no matter if your clothes are wide or tight, insecure people will always find a way to discriminate you and to treat you from above. You are the ones that give value to the things that happen to you in your life, not others. Even the fact that you think you need skills to stick to a hobby shows, that there is a big value problem. Is your sports activity only worth playing if you are good at it? One could also go out and celebrate himself for getting off the couch, for stepping on unknown grounds or for saying to himself and others „Yes, I am playing bad but it’s my way and it’s good the way it is“. You still would have the right to play disc golf and participate in tournaments. But if you as a woman are not seeing this (and you are not, otherwise you would not need praise of „more skilled players“) why should men? Because the fact is that there are not only Antonia Fabers and Wiebke Jahns in Germany. There are girls that play, well, mediocre. There are girls that need more throws for one round than a guy for the whole tournament. And this does not have to do anything with sexism, they might just not be athletic. There are many boys and girls that might never get better at sports but should be allowed to love it anyway and have the right to take part. A strong mentality has nothing to do with being good at sports. Shouldn’t they have enough self-confidence to play even if they play bad, just for fun? But that also means that those women, women like me, should not compare themselves with open players. I win a lot of tournaments just because we are four women playing and none of the other played better than me this time. Is this something I can be proud of? Or can I conclude from that that I am a „good“ disc golfer? Someone who should play a final round together with open players? Yes, why not having Antonia and Wiebke and Christine showing their skills at a final round with guys if they want to, but why do you think that I should want this, and that this is needful to show me that men respect me? For whom would such a mixed round be interesting or challenging from the point of view of the sport? And by the way, who decides which divisions should be in this „dream“ flight, because there are more than four divisions applying for the four available spots. I feel like we are trying to put the cart in front of the horse. As long as there are not enough women playing, there does not seem to be room to celebrate diversity in skills.

    We should not go out and show the world that we are not better than those we are complaining about by spreading and sharing unintentiously the same stereotypes. We should go out and tell the girls what disc golf can do for their mental strength. Disc golf is not only a physical sport. The mental skills and toughness I need on the course are pretty much the same that are helping me to become a self-determined, satisfied and happy person. E.g. focus on the good things. Not to mourn after things I cannot change anymore. Getting up on my feet over and over again. Challenge yourself. Being active. Being responsible for your own actions and take the consequences. Maybe THAT a way to bring our sport „to the market“. Why not conquer school classes and talking about that mental toughness to boys and girls?

  9. Hello you all,

    since I was mentioned twice now, I feel like I need to also give my opinon to this.
    First I like to say, that I read dr.delays atricle when it came out. I know John and also know his houmor, so I laughed. And I did not feel offended. But it had me started thinking about women in dosc golf.

    Yes, it is a public colum, but that does not mean it is addressing each and every sinlge person out there. So for those who feel, that he was not adressing women, maybe that was not his intensions. Maybe it was, still, I don’t get, why anyone feels like attacking the auther, just because they don’t like what was written.

    In my opinion, the artical was for sure good for starting a discussion about women in disc golf, here in Germany. And that is also what I think we should focous on.
    If we, the disc golfers, can not motivate more women to play and participate in tournaments, the number of spots, reserved for women at tournaments, will never change. Right now the number is correlated with the numner of active players in each division, that are enlisted in the DFV. So we need more women to play to get more spots.

    I just played Tyyni, they reserved 40 spots for FPO, but only 14 signed up. Does that mean we have less FPO spots next year? Maybe not, because NBDG (the organizers) are fighting to get more women playing. And they do that all year around.
    Their stratagy is one, that I am thinking about applying to Germany. NBDG organizes a series of women tournaments (with all age and pro/amateur divisions), weekly/monthly trainings and occational workshops throughout Finnland. I am not sure, how to organize that, but if we all do just a part of it, I am sure that we can motivate more women to try disc golf or play tournaments. This however means a lot of work to those involved.

    I am also motivated to do so, because I know, what Anna is talking about, when saying that some women are not sure if they belong in the course. I poke to many women in the last years, manly to those cadding for their boyfriend/husband… or women that were just playing a fun round with friends. Most of those, who did not compete, yet, told me that they don’t compete, since their are to many men and they feel like they don’t belong in tournaments.
    Do I feel, like they sould gain some confidence? Yes, but how to help them get there? I think the way to solve that problem is to provide more opportunities for them to feel welcome, by offering more chances to learn and compete within their comfort zone (all or mainly women).

    Well, I thinks that is enough from my site for now.
    If anyone likes my ideas and wants to help / join in on building a small women tour, let me know. But just so you know, I have finalized, yet. But I am sure we can work something out. For the next month, I will be focoused on preparing for the world, so I will work on this from September.

    Cheers, Antonia F.

  10. Dear everyone,

    thanks for your thoughts and please let me assure you that I very much appreciate everyone’s passion with which this discussion is led.

    The formulation “your appearance was completely irrelevant to you” was not meant as “you don’t take care of your appearance”, but in the sense of “being a woman, you’ve grown up in a world where your appearance is constantly judged by others, and somehow you have still found a way to give a damn about other people’s opinion and just do your own thing”. That women are constantly judged on the basis of their looks, their way to dress, their weight, etc. – of that I am convinced, just like Cara. If someone manages to grow up like this without more serious damage and a healthy self-perception, then there can be nothing but admiration for them.

    I realise that this sense may not quite come across above, since the “and/or” is misleading. I’ve changed the wording in the hope that it is clearer now.

    Let me summarise my argument posed above: I took John’s contribution and pointed out in which ways it is problematic. Based on this, I added my own perspective as a female and gave examples of reasons why women might feel inhibited to play disc golf. I can see that there is agreement in this regard between my own and Antonia’s assumptions.

    If there are any aspects in my text that are misleading or seem offensive, I’m grateful for having them pointed outand always willing to change the wording. I can’t say much about the reactions the article has caused, apart from the obvious cry for “Freedom of expression for everyone!”. I can only speak for myself and after re-reading and re-re-reading I’m still of the opinion that I did not attack anyone personally, but that my argument is more or less comprehensively built up and presented rationally. As I said, I’m happy to change the wording where offense might be taken. But I also demand not being offended myself.

    Please everyone allow me now to sum up: Some people find the original article by dr.delay amusing, some find it offensive, some find it one-sided, some find it lacking the female perspective.

    I assume that most of what was necessary to say is said and we can now bundle our power and do a brainstorming. There have been valuable suggestions and especially Antonia has given concrete ideas on potential measures that could be taken – thanks Antonia! I would like to follow this lead and talk about the suggestions made and collect more ideas and opinions on that.

  11. Antonia,

    that sounds superinspiring. With respect to a practice group for women in Potsdam, you can count me in. I can think of at least 10 people who would be totally up for it.

    I am also setting up a quick survey (as some sort of pilot study) that hopefully aids in finding out what the particular needs are, i.e. how to best create a welcoming environment. I will restrict the scope to Potsdam though, as I don’t have more personal capacities. If anyone would like to provide me with (further) questions that they feel need to be included, please let me know. I can also share the survey itself, so that other people can spread it in and analyse the results for their specific region. Just get in touch if you’re interested.

    The tournament series sounds exciting as well. Would it make sense to have organisers in several regions and hold every tournament in a different venue? If that’s not feasible, maybe concentrate on one’s own course first and then later connect? Not sure what’s better.

  12. Dear Anna,

    Sorry, I still don’t understand why you mention lesbian women at all. If you still don’t know I can’t help you. However, it’s enough and I like „Pups“. 

    The only thing I am claiming is that EVERYBODY needs to be careful with his words and his own behaviour, not only men, and that everybody is more reflective because nobody is perfect.

    To come to an end I would like to quote you with a sentence I liked immediately: 

    „Just do it, sisters! Just let them, brothers! Just have fun together, people!“

    Antonia, sorry for naming you personally, but you are the German Champion so you were the first person in my mind when talking about top female german disc golfers.

    As far I know the idea of a womens league is not a new one and it has already been denied by players because the few female disc golfers are spread throughout Germany and there were not enough women willing or able to take part. Remember the discussion about where the WGE should take place so that many women can take part. Worth trying? Sure, I am on board.  

    We opened that Womens discgolf Germany Facebook group last year, where I thought to have a platform for exchange and I gave shoutouts to female disc golfers playing interesting tournaments. Maybe it’s worth reviving it, in whatever way. It’s there and free to be used. I don’t know if Sara is in that group, I can add her if she wants and I would be happy for suggestions of others potential members.

    I also tried to spread those international disc golf bag tags just for women during the WGE. I think more than 30 or 40 were sold, whats great. But unfortunately, only a few women registered their bag tag and nearly none if the registered were challegenged by someone else.

    I also made those little WGE scorebooks and distributed them at the WGE. In the facebook discussion someone commented that it might be good to put into players packs „items women actually want to use“, if I quote her correct. Maybe such scorebooks can give creative ideas? I really felt like a lot of women liked them.

    To get clearance, about whom are we talking, women that already play disc golf or women that have never heard about it?

    Cara

  13. I see what you mean, I’ll briefly add the explanation: I mentioned lesbian women because the column referred to the increased amount of snogging available to men at parties as a result of the inclusion of women. I believe that lesbian women (but not only, of course) would be rather indifferent towards this prospect and therefore not feel addressed.

    Coolio, so that’s that, sisters, brothers and people.

    I was especially referring to women who do not regularly play, but who have tried it once or a few times but never really got into the game. I don’t see why they should not experience the same development of enlightenment that I did and eventually become disc golf lovers. There are so many of them and they might embrace low-threshold options for practice and tournament participation.

    Obviously though, making the sport known in general is also important. The university sports department has an ongoing cooperation with our ultimate players and we’re currently introducing disc golf as well.

    What does a women’s league entail? Would that be the regular tournaments that Antonia mentioned or a whole other story? Sounds very intriguing. (I’m not on Facebook though.)

    P.S.: I actually didn’t know that the bag tags could be registered. I only know of one more in my surrounding so they’re usually just getting swapped.

  14. Thank you all for taking the time to elaborate. It is much appreciated. I think we all have the same goal at heart, but different viewpoints on certain aspects & situations. I wish I could respond to every detail, but I mostly have one last issue.

    Cara, you are surprised that it took Anna so much courage/encouragement to really get into disc golf. This is the case for a lot of women! Yes, making a welcoming environment for women is about tournament formats, toilets etc., but considering the special needs of women also means taking into account the „confidence gap“ when you’re interacting with women. This is often dismissed as „degrading women to victims“ or like you kind of said „stereotyping women as weak“ or so. On the other hand, it is often mistaken for empowerment or encouragement to tell girls and women to just „be tougher“. In some situations this message can be discouraging, intimidating or simply condescending. It makes a lot of people feel ashamed, like something’s wrong with them for being scared or not „tough enough“ already. In a welcoming environment, it’s okay to be scared. It’s okay to be weak or vulnerable. You receive understanding and support to overcome your fears. Accepting personal responsibility doesn’t mean not needing help. It also doesn’t mean being silent about unfair circumstances (such as lack of toilets).

    Another female disc golfer on Facebook mentioned some comments such as „women are too slow“, „shut up and listen to better players“ that can be extremely discouraging. Some things that you and dr.delay wrote create exactly the kind of atmosphere that makes beginners like us feel inadequate and unwelcome. dr.delay asks me how many female „top players“ I’m friends with. You’re suspicious about the amount of tournaments we’ve played. What you’re doing with that is invalidating our opinions by questioning our status in the community. This „who the f*** are you?!“ attitude sends a message: „You’re not one of us. You don’t have a say in this.“

    It’s nice of you to remind me to „pick my battles“. Could I have not picked this one? Sure. Yes, my criticism was harsh. I thought his text was cringeworthy and I voiced that opinion. When you call yourself „Ladies love“, you should be aware of how often female readers have heard that (and similar phrases). You’re bound to trigger some anger. He could be prepared to listen to that if he writes like this on such a sensitive subject. You call it an attack. I didn’t hack his email account, publish his private address, ask people to hurt him or his family (as happens to a lot of women who write things online…).

    He has, and you have, every right to criticize my criticism and I assure you I have spent (and will spend) plenty of time thinking and talking about this situation and my part in it. (In fact I’m constantly figuring out how to address feminist issues with people who have other perspectives.) But please let’s stay on eye level and not rate people’s opinion by how far they’ve made it in the disc golf world.

    That being said, I’m loving all the ideas that have been put forth. I’m happy to take part in a project to support women in disc golf in Potsdam. For my part I would prefer to focus on recruiting more new female players, as this can be done with small steps. A women’s league sounds like too big of a project to start with. I already have some experience showing the sport to newcomers. But I’ve also been thinking of throwing a WGE or so in 2020 – maybe even in Finsterwalde, as the new course there is a project I want to support as well. Let’s stay in touch.

    PS: The lesbian thing – would it help if I put the word „heteronormativity“ out there…? I suspect that’s what Anna was referring to.

    PPS: Reading suggestion on the „confidence gap“:
    https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2014/05/the-confidence-gap/359815/

    1. No, please don’t amend the wording into something an average person has to look up in dictionary, thanks.

      Thank you also for letting me know about the „confidence gap“, I somehow was prepared to hear there exists a feminist name for it. But hearing that I have „special needs“ was something completely new for me, shame on me. I am feeling bad now.

      Yes, I am creating an atmosphere that makes you and other beginners feel inadequate and unwelcome by rating your opinion by how far you’ve made it in the disc golf world and the number of tournaments you played – if it is more comfortable for you to believe this I am here for your free disposal to work off your insecurities, I can stand this. But if it is not too much to ask feel free next time to grab your own nose and see if you might have get others completely wrong and that you just wanted to misunderstand me and maybe also that „bad guy“ dr. delay. I totally understand that it is so much easier to seek the problem in others.

      After all, it’s nice to see that disc golf is so much closer to your heart than creating an inclusive disc golf community for that guy you attacked for his article. Because YOU really made that effort to proof that you make a „more valuable contribution“ by doing your homework and research on disc golf women’s themes, for example „the thing with the tournament spots for women“. You did not „trumpet“ your own unreflected well-meant „groats“ (as Germany say), sat back and waited for your medal.

      You totally have the right to see my appeal to start with yourself, being responsible and taking care of your own mental health as something too much to bear for young women. I am happy that I am not in that kind of „girls club“.

      And of course you have all the right in the world to relativize your attack by saying that men are doing worse to women every day. Thumbs up for this objective, two sided piece of art.

      I would have wished that you represented women’s sport a bit more adequate.

  15. Hi,

    building sanitary rooms is a good thing and I am with you. We should consider that it is not always easy building a restroom connected to water and light, for example deep in the woods, and seeking allowances from authorities is also work, as is taking care of those sanitary rooms, keeping them clean, refill toilet paper and assure accessibility and access control. To rent temporarily a Dixie toilet is surely possible for tournaments but at first sight it does not sound as if it can serve for casual rounds, i.e. for a long-term solution. I am not sure how much a Dixie costs and if a disc golf club should be able to afford these costs for a long-term solution, and what type of care they need – I am neither into club financials nor into Dixie toilets. This is something someone would have to find out for being able to give any qualified answer. I am not really using sanitary rooms when I am disc golfing as they are often dirty or stinky, so I am not aware about the actual standards in Germany. The idea of sanitary rooms on disc golf courses is not new and it already made its way to the German Tour rules. It is fixed that and how a toilet must be available for players during tournaments – if you recognize that there is a rule violation by a lack of toilets during tournaments you are allowed to address it to the responsible persons, i.e. the TD (maybe even contacting him or her BEFORE the respective tournament, because we are not here to point with fingers on someone but to have a better environment for us women), and if that is not helpful go a level higher, i.e. GT/DFV.

    Great idea to change tournament formats, or offer handicap or women’s leagues and tournaments, I am with you again. So what is to do, printing flyers or something like that? I feel like we have to inform women about these possibilities in some way, because otherwise they will not coming back after playing this fateful casual round with their friends.

    We have a metrix handicap league in our club in Rüsselsheim, that’s really really a great thing. Unfortunately, the participating players are the same as always. It is not addressing anyone outside the community woman or men. We try to spread it via facebook, motivate players to participate, but that also addresses only people that are already in the disc golf facebook community.

    I already tried to explain and Antonia as well: The number of spots for each year and each division is directly linked to the number of players in that division the year before. No women in tournaments in 2018 means no tournament spots for women in 2019. The same rules apply for all divisions. It’s that easy. Something to change? Maybe. Any ideas?

    I already read twice „women’s magazines“ some words about disc golf in articles about new trendy sports. If I remember correct the description was short and held easy. Maybe it’s worth asking those women’s magazine if one could provide a more detailed report, using their preceding mini-article as a hanger. Maybe about any specific female player if anyone is interested in being interviewed. Something else than the typical summarizing event-articles of the club’s local newspaper – scores, weather, the number of players… something with content that is interesting for women, I don’t know.

  16. „mainova sport rhein main“ is a homepage introducing to sport clubs in our area. Their slogan is „Find your sport“ and I think I have also seen Prospect in which women and girls were explicitely addressed. Maybe it’s worth get in touch with them?

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